[Goldice]: two meanings actually. it can also mean a child whos mother and the child doesn't the know father

[thesuperman]: He was an accused "killer" from Texas...that's bulls***...he was innocent....the courts were wrong.

[Dil*]: oh, was he one of the people that got executed then found later to be innocent?

[thesuperman]: well...they never "found" him to be innocent, but i know he was.

[Dil*]: umm, I can't exactly support you on that one.....

[thesuperman]: someone planted those people in his house (i didnt live with him at the time) but he told me that it wasnt him...i believed him and now he is dead...

[Dil*]: uh huh.

[Rondel]: I don't feel in a position to pass judgement. I know that such miscarriages of justice happen (my own cousin's husband is one of three people currently in jail on the charge of having committed the same murder - each of them supposedly having done so alone - despite the fact that he had no motive, & the actual killer confessed, giving details nobody but the killer would know), but without secondary supporting evidence, it is hard for us, as strangers, to be certain of your father's innocence, based on nothing but his own reported claims of innocence. But that's the "inconvenient" thing about capital punishment -- once the accused is dead, there's no way to undo it, if a mistake is made.

[Dil*]: that's the main reason I don't support capital punishment, alot of people that were executed were later found to be innocent.

[Peace_Turtles]: and that some executions go wrong...I read a list of executions that have gone wrong. Capital Punishment is just so weak...it's just weak...

[thesuperman]: well, that fucker killed my father...and i will never forgive him

[Rondel]: A feeling you have every right to have, IMHO, [thesuperman]. You knew your father in ways none of us do, and if you are convinced of his innocence, I cannot imagine what kind of pathetic excuse for a son you would have to be in order NOT to hate the man who had your father put to death. I grieve for you. That probably sounds corny, but it's what my heart says, and I'm too tired to find other words for what I feel.

[thesuperman]: thank you...your words are appreciated.

[glayshard]: I just joined, but every time i put up the banner it just pops up as words to the link. does anyone know what im doing wrong?

[Lord Kügenheim]: To make the banner work you need to copy the code (found at the top of this page) where you want the banner to appear in your house and remove all 3 Stars (*) from it.

[Rondel]: Speaking of which, it would be nice if someone added an apostrophe to that "I'm" in "I'm a member", in the page banner code. :)

[Lord Kügenheim]: Not a bad plan. Thanks.

[Rondel]: You're welcome. :)

[glayshard]: Thanks- did you guys know that Bush has the lowest approval ratting that he has ever had? It seems that he couldnt ride the 9 11 sorrow wagon but for so long. Its a shame that we couldnt have another election right now and get him out of office

[Shee A'beanne Alainn]: And who excatly are you hoping to get in office next....

[Rondel]: Someone less twisted and dangerous, like maybe a rabid rottweiler?

[Lord Kügenheim]: that usualy happens in politics these days. Someone sucky is in power and the alternatives arent much better either...

[kduncan]: mwaha.. I got banned from the Bush supporter's wiki.

[thesuperman]: why would you go bother them? They didn't do anything to us, did they?

[kduncan]: Bother them? I didn't start out "bothering" them. I pushed them on some things they posted which weren't true, challenged them to back up what they'd posted (they couldn't), and questioned claims they'd made and political beliefs they hold.

[thesuperman]: what posts were not true? i want to challenge them too

[kduncan]: Do you want to start with the one by Kyrinn claiming that there is an "unlimited supply" of oil in the AANWR?

[Dil*]: That's just bullshit, I can't believe it..is this how they solve their problems??! Bury them?!

[Black_Dragon_123]: there is no such thing as an "unlimited supply" of any physical thing. It's just not possible.

[kduncan]: Hubbert's Peak.. the concept of "peak oil production" was first discussed in depth by a geophysicist named.. I think.. M. King Hubbert. I think that most (if not all) geologists and geophysicists understand that fossil fuels are a very limited resource. In fact.. most lay people even inderstand this. For anyone to argue that any fossil fuel is available in unlimited quantities is ridiculous.

[Dil*]: nothing on this earth is unlimited...except for maybe water..but I don't think so. The supply of fresh water is also dying out..

[Black_Dragon_123]: Well, there isn't unlimited water. It does recycle itself through natural processes, but it isn't unlimited.

[Rondel]: Earth = finite space-time locus Ergo, all earth-bound objects & substances are finite. QED How simple can one get??? <sigh> And to those of you up to challenging others on unsupported false statements claimed as facts, GO FOR IT!!! :D <applauds [kduncan]>

[kduncan]: It's quite useless to argue logically against people who won't even do their own research, and who delete any posts contrary to their faulty assumptions. They are, quite honestly, a close-mided group who won't accept any knid of research/information that dispels any of their opinions.. but they offer up nothing to back up their opinions. It's sad, really.. but this is what the US is becoming: a nation of people who sit back and watch television commercials.. and take them as "fact". I stand with what I said regards one of their members: When you don't have the ammunition to do battle, the best thing to do is retreat. Well.. in this case not only have they retreated, but they've also 

[kduncan]: censored a person they can't do intellectual battle with. I have to admit though.. sad as it is.. it's also kind of funny.

[kduncan]: And, I have to say, I've just read what has transpired over there in my absence.. and I wouldn't normally recommend anyone go over there to read it.. but this is funny. Apparently they reported me to the Guards ( I sort of expected they would).. and the Guard backed me up.. and the wiki owner told the GUARD to leave.. after the wiki owner flamed me. heh.. this is truly some good reading folks.

[what the bleep do we know?]: Bush is a dumbass who wants to fight for oil and not terrorism. The bottom line is he is evil and does not belong in office. He nevr even came to his own countries aid when he wasn't president, so how could we expect him to be able to now!

[thesuperman]: haha...this is funny

[Dil*]: Yes, I laughed sooo hard when the guard actually took your side..and put bush supporters association under 'useless wikis'

[thesuperman]: hahaha...which guard did that? i want to thank him

[Dil*]: bush haters vs bush supporters - my new wiki

[sind]: haha!! a guard put the "bush supporters association" under 'usless wikis' thats kick ass!! haha!! thats hilarious!!

[Dil*]: yes, I was laughing pretty hard.

[Black_Dragon_123]: THAT'S THE GREATEST THING EVER!!! ^^!!!

[Rondel]: I never made it past laughing myself sick over the self-importance of the *8* members of the Bush Supporters, who seem to be under the impression that they are anything other than a reflection of the small US minority who are attempting to impose their presidential-veneration and its resultant "might makes right" attitude upon the rest of the world -- despite the fact that they are vastly outnumbered by those whom they are attempting to oppress, and cannot sustain a single logical point in the face of reasoned challenge. <rolls eyes>

[kduncan]: I've never felt more vindicated in my life than I did when the guard chastised them.

[kduncan]: On thing I felt was really funny (back a bit in the wiki) was when one member said that people outside the US have no right to say anything about US politics or about the US president. Helloo.. then what is the US doing meddling in the affairs of another country..er.. countries?

[Rondel]: I find it particularly humourous when people try that argument against me, not realizing that I'm an American citizen (although I have the good sense to be living abroad). He's my president, too, how come I'm supposedly not supposed to have a right to care that he's getting the citizens of my adopted country killed fighting a war that I was protesting when his FATHER was in office??? It's not like I haven't been voicing my opinions in keeping with the American democratic tradition, and I *AM* a citizen of the US by birth -- but as such, *I* can see that once he made the world into his stomping grounds, the rest of the world gained a right to complain about his choice to stomp on them.

[Rondel]: I am *quite* happy that the Elftown guard had the good sense to stand up for you and back you up; knowing you, you wouldn't be violating the site rules in the course of your discussion, you'd just be so "infuriatingly" logical that you'd drive your opponents to distraction, as they tried (and failed) to find a coherent response to you other than "you're a weenie-head". LOL I can just imagine that interaction, and yes, I find it very amusing. I stand by my earlier statement, though -- I still derive a lot of humour value from the way in which that wiki seems to be such a microcosmic reflection of the Bush supporters in the macrocosm of the world at large. <chuckle>

[kduncan]: heh.. infuriatingly logical. That's funny, because my mate has told me many times that I should have gone into law as a career. "Yeah," I said, "only problem with that is that I'd probably be one of those underpaid ACLU attorneys."

[sind]: ACLU?? what does that stand for? lol...gosh..one thing i hate about hte president otu of the many things.. is that he's a christian...well thats not it..but he puts his religion into his choices/what he says...and its extremely irritating. i mean.. not everyone in the US is a 'CHRISTIAN' gees! bush needs leave alone the other countries that we ARE NOT responsible for! -.- hey wanna hear something funny? heh. i hear hitler (however you spell her name) is and/or wanting to be a presidential cannidate for the united states.. haha! yeah right..not many people will vote for her if she does...and if that she does happen to be a canidate the people who will vote for here will only do so..

[sind]: because she's a chick! -.-

[kduncan]: ACLU stands for American Civil Liberties Union. You know.. they're the people Rush Limbaugh always railed against, then helped him in his hour of need.

[Peregrinus]: That man disgusts me...

[Peregrinus]: Oh, and mayhaps this is a good place to plug my new wiki. it's called the Elfpack Initiative and the premise is rather simple, if you go check it out. Now I don't necissarily agree with everything [Steel Mal'ak], the "co-president," of the wiki has said on there, and I hope to have that changed in the near future to sound a tad less... abrasive, but you'll get the idea at least...

[sind]: ahh! i really dislike Rush Limbaugh...my dad listens to him practically every night.. ahh! and he's always listen to every other political person too..like...the o'rielly factor hanity and holme's or whatever its called...etc.etc. oh and drudge.. -.-

[Peregrinus]: Yuck. That is all I have to say. Yuck.

[sind]: yuck? why are you saying yuck? yuck is a weird word..-repeats yuck over and over- hmmph.

[Dil*]: bush haters vs bush supporters

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: Can I please be added to this wiki?

[Goldice]: yeah sure

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: Thank you much

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: The banner has been placed where my other wiki banners go

[Goldice]: okedokie

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: Thank you

[Goldice]: just make sure you read the rules

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: I did so captain *salute*

[Goldice]: lol. cheeky. thats just i dont get shot by LK

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: I understand....haha

[Goldice]: good

[sind]: hmm... -is puzzled- -.-

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: wha'ts puzzling?

[sind]: oh i have like...no idea what you guys are talking about..which is why i was puzzled for a min.

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: We were talking about me joining and reading the rules...

[Goldice]: uh huh. and how anyone doesnt will be shot by LK

[sind]: oh i see..hey! i dont want to be shot. erum.. (lol)

[Goldice]: teeheehee

[The Number One Joker]: BUSH SUCKS

[Dil*]: yes. yes we know.

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: w00tw00t. You are very observant...

[Deus_Casus]:

[Deus_Casus]: http://www.lookatentertainment.com/v/v-774.htm

[Panda-monium]: LMAO

[Alex DeLarge]: Matt. Damon.

[Rondel]: I LOVE that image. Beautifully executed, and highly meaningful. <long sigh>

[sind]: wow...

[Deus_Casus]: thank you, thank you i have more if you like...

[Rondel]: I'd love to see them -- do you have a URL where you display them?

[Lord Kügenheim]: Stick some in members stuff if you like

[Deus_Casus]: thanks, if i can find some good ones in the large dump that is my hard drive i will

[Deus_Casus]: ok i have 2 up in the last section (201-300) of the members sub page

[Iron-wulf]: Hey you mother fuckers!!!

[thesuperman]: hello

[Iron-wulf]: I would love to fuckin murder all of you bastards and smear your blood all over your families.

[thesuperman]: bush killed my father....so you will just finish the job...

[Iron-wulf]: I wish Bush would nuke all them damn sand niggers. We should just kill them all and then steal their oil. Maybe after that we could kill all those other piss ant countries that ask the US for help then turn their backs. I guess we could put all of our queers in

[Iron-wulf]: I wish Bush would nuke all them damn sand niggers. We should just kill them all and then steal their oil. Maybe after that we could kill all those other piss ant countries that ask the US for help then turn their backs. I guess we could put all of our queers in France!!!

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: And other countries why we are fucking morons....look at this example ^^^^

[Iron-wulf]: Where are you form you God damn piece of shit???

[thesuperman]: i dont understand....please tell me.

[Duredhel]: just erase the comments, not worth anyone's time.

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: Toledo Ohio...born and raised. True liberal spirit through and through. And bush hater to the bone. I don't care where you're from. The better question is, where the hell did your manners go??? Didn't bush say that we should be curteous?

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: I would if I could..but Ican't

[Iron-wulf]: Why dont i erase your life mother fucker!!! Hey im just playing the act of the typical American right?!?!

[thesuperman]: I thought Ohio was the state that pushed Bush into the White house this term...why didnt you stop it?

[sind]: im soo confused...gosh! i hate being confused! -.- hey impy!lol

[Iron-wulf]: It was the state that elected him. All liberals are pussy ass mother fuckers who would rather suy somebody than argue with them because their all a bunch of limp wristed queers. Why dont you go down on your queer indians or ass fuck your fag browns impy!!!!

[thesuperman]: what's a liberal?

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: And this my friends, is the plight of the delusional conservative who would rather spend his time licking bush's ass crack then learning how to spell WOLF.

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: Let's all clap for the idiot!! *claps for iron- illiteracy*

[thesuperman]: what's an impy?

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: Liberal believes in rights for people more than conservatives do. They don't think that everything has to be one ways. Opposite of conservatives...

[Iron-wulf]: Im neither i just hate fag as liberals like you and all you damn friends around here. Yeah you sure do like this place when its a bunch of dicks who agree with each other but soon as someone who does not agree steps in they are an idiot. That what you bastards have done to me here and on EP so i have no respect for any of you assholes!!!

[thesuperman]: o ok...well thats dumb

[Iron-wulf]: Yeah i bet you would do more than just lick the presidents crack you stupid bitch!!!

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: *sighs at the embarassment to nature* Anyway, how was your day?

[Iron-wulf]: Shut the fuck up slut!!!! Your a dumb ass piece of shit that will never do anything with you life besides being a hairy pitted liberal ass piece of shit feminist whore.

[thesuperman]: my day was fine...but what is a liberal impy?

[Iron-wulf]: She already told you a pussy who goes whimpering into the night. They complain about everything and do nothing about it but whine they take no action because they love fags and all sort of other loser people.

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: A liberal by dictionary term is: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=liberal (found there) Basically it means that rather than keep doing things the same old way and trying to make everyone conform to the same thing....we believe there should be freedom.

[thesuperman]: why are you so ugly?

[Iron-wulf]: Well there is freedom you idiot. Just because you want to change the way everyone acts does not make you right!!!

[Dil*]: Hey why don't you shut up and leave [Iron-wulf]? Before I message the guards and ban your ass from ET for un neccessary name calling. It's rude, and uncalled for and it goes against one of the rules of ET.  Don't be an Asshole

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: Let's just clap for the idiot *claps* Please be quiet Iron-wulf. If you continue to make your little comments I wil have you reported to the gaurds. My final warning.

[thesuperman]: are you a liberal 'pussy' too?

[Iron-wulf]: I dont give a shit. You guys are just a poor excuse for debators. Your cyber threats mean nothing. I might be scared of the threats if i didnt know all of you bitches were liberals to begin with. So i know you assholes wouldnt try anything anyway!!!

[Dil*]: If you went here with actual facts and didn't cuss at everyone unprovoked...maybe we'd have a proper debate. Your options are running low if you get banned from ET. (since you are already banned from EP)

[Iron-wulf]: Yeah your right well you should tell that to your fellow assholes on EP who seem to do the same thing i have been doing. So i guess whats good for the goose is in fact not good for the gander in this situation!!!!

[thesuperman]: do liberals suck dick?

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: EP is a waste of net space. Anyway, I've already sent a warning to the gaurds. I'm off for now.

[Iron-wulf]: Ok bye bitch!?!?!?and yes they do suck dick that is as long as they are male liberals female ones mow the lawn.

[thesuperman]: oh my....by mow the lawn, do you mean they lick each others vaginas?? oh my....thats no good for impy, cause she's ugly

[Iron-wulf]: Yeah i know that is sad. I beleive that her and that other bitch were lying when they said they were involved. Perhaps with something thats not human.

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: Ahhh...it's so much fun to sit back and watch them play with each other... *watches the two harmless children at play*

[sind]: wow...what are you guys talking about?

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: I'm not even sure anymore but I don't think it's about the president anymore...

[sind]: lol.

[thesuperman]: what's a president?

[Panda-monium]: The official head of state of the United States of America, one who shares an equal power with the Legislature and Judicial branches, and is elected into office along with a running mate. Now that is a very sketchy definition, but if you require a better one I am sure it could be forthcoming.

[Rondel]: FYI, Wikipedia has a good set of informative pages on the subject of political terminology. You might try running these basic questions past that site, as an impartial 3rd party informational venue dedicated specifically to providing balanced information on a wide variety of topics. For those who are interested, the URL is http://www.wikipedia.org -- and the project is an open source encyclopedia, so if you see a spot where the information on the site is lacking, feel free to add it. :) All submissions are reviewed to make sure that they're factual and accurate, but I think it's great that there is now a "People's Encyclopedia", growing through collaboration and cooperative effort. :)

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: wow, thats cool that we have one of those somewhere.

[sind]: hey impy!! (lol)

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: Hi hi ^_^

[sind]: lol. hmmph! oh heh. sorry. hm. (lol)

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: huh?

[sind]: haha! nothing. hm. i feel lonely...

[chasingpeace]: *walks about silently in the empty debate hall, taken aback by the silence of people not debating or even talking about the president and his unethical values*

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: *is sucked into doom 3 for xbox in the corner, jaw agape, eyes unblinking...*

[Deus_Casus]: serious sam should be our next president...

[Deus_Casus]: while we are on the topic of games

[sind]: hmm. games..are..__________ lol. games are fuN!

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: Some games are fun but I'm getting tired of Halo 2 cuz I'm stuck in one spot that I could have sworn I got past a long time aog but I keep having to do it over...

[sind]: lol... i play the multi-player part of halo..and the uhm team whatever part lol

[// Grace //.And..Bend]: *nods* So do alot of my friends.

[sind]: lol.

[Deus_Casus]: does anyone know what bush said to piss off the middle easterners was?

[Deus_Casus]: get this "...A cruisade against terrorism..." Keyword there is cruisade, im assuming everyone here knows of the first cruisade and how the European nations banded together to wage war with the invaders of Jerulsem. Way to Go Mr. President!

[Rondel]: Don't forget the 4th Crusade! There were a number in the medieval era, & the 4th definitely deserves reference in this context. *sigh* LOL But it's true -- when trying to reassure the world that the war one is fighting is not religiously motivated, calling it a "Crusade" (particularly when the protagonists are of the same faith & cultural heritage as those who fought on both sides of the previous crusades) is manifestly NOT a good idea. It does a lot to clarify the real nature of the situation, even when one's *intent* is to camouflage it. But I misspeak -- while one layer of the conflict *is* ideological, another is the strict pragmatism of greed, & a country with no energy policy.

[Panda-monium]: Gah...

[Dil*]: frightening.

[sind]: very.

[Deus_Casus]: im only talking about the first, we were dumb enough to send in children, even our own kings, those failed, we only really own 1 crusade

[Rondel]: Huh? Wars throughout history have involved sending in children. What do you mean by "we only really own 1 crusade"? From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades ): The Crusades were a series of several military campaigns — usually sanctioned by the Papacy— that took place during the 11th through 13th centuries. Originally, they were Roman Catholic endeavors to re-capture the Holy Land from the Muslims, but some were directed against other Europeans, such as the Fourth Crusade ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade ) against Constantinople, the Albigensian Crusade against the Cathars of southern France and the Northern Crusades.

[Deus_Casus]: hmm...there was however a child's crusade which is what im refering too, the others that you mentioned i didnt know. that was very good info. that own was a type-o of won, sorry about that, and thanks for picking up on that.

[Rondel]: There are links to the "Children's Crusade" off of the main "Crusades" link given in the comment above. I've just closed that browser tab, or I'd paste in the actual link, but it's only two clicks away, and really easy to find. I *think* you're talking about the one in WWI, but I could be wrong -- that's the "Children's Crusade" which is memorialized in the poppies still worn by many veterans (and their families) on Memorial Day and its equivalents, especially in Great Britain. That's the "Children's Crusade" about which Sting wrote a song which is featured on his "Dream of the Blue Turtles" album, with the line "poppies for young men, death's bitter trade - all for a Children's Crusade".

[Rondel]: I'd be quite interested to know just which "Children's Crusade" you meant; I hope you'll let us know. I'm *quite* surprised that you were unaware of the other Crusades, given their relevance to current world politics and the subject at hand. <shakes head over the state of the educational system> I'm not meaning to insult you -- what you don't know, you don't know because you weren't taught it, a failure on the part of your teachers -- quite an omission, under the circumstances, wouldn't you say? I'm glad to have been able to point you at some fascinating (and highly relevant) history here, and hope you'll follow through on it and educate yourself. As for "own", I was honestly confused.

[Deus_Casus]: there was more than one?

[SlumDumb89]: bush is a fucking fagit!!!!!!

[Panda-monium]: *sighs heavily*

[Deus_Casus]: thats great you have an opinion but atleast show evidence, or explain why he is what you think he is, Bush bashers wouldnt get very far without evidence

[Panda-monium]: And her choice of diction is lacking in many of the general areas of fundamental decencies and intelligence.

[sind]: woah. you guys are serious politics... ahh.. scary.

[Panda-monium]: I try.

[Rondel]: Maybe we should balance that -- by use patterns, I'm starting to think we need to add one wiki for random anti-Bush comments (might as well relegate the pro-Bush ones there, too, since the comments are too random for there to be a risk of actual debate...), & one for political humour, where the discussion is light & satirical all the time (gee, I feel like I'm advertising a radio station). Or people could accept that this *is* a serious discussion (and debate) forum, which occasionally ventures into satirical humour & the odd tersely frustrated comment, because the wiki's users are seriously interested in the subject, but human enough to be frustrated at times, or bitterly make light of it.

[Deus_Casus]: eh im not to big on spellingand grammar, i use to type that way. i only use periods when ending a thought inbetween the beginning and end. but i try to use good english. capitalization is a whole other story. i just hate when people go saying things out of the blue, and sometimes their asses, its like math, SHOW YOUR WORK, evidence gets you pretty far in life

[Deus_Casus]: For The Motherland is a place i started where everyone is equal and everyone's voice can be heard

[Crow T. Robot]: I hear alot of the american people are not satisfied with the way Bush is handling social security

[kduncan]: Deus_Casus, you say that Bush bashers wouldn't get very far without evidence? Let's start with the lies told by his administration that sucked the US into a war in the middle east.. two, actually -- and at the same time no less.

[kduncan]: Then we can talk about Haliburton, and the fact that Haliburton has been permitted to fip off American taxpayers to the tune of billions of dollars.

[kduncan]: Then there's the little matter of the Carlyle Group. You know, that little "members only" club that has primarily heads of state as its members.. the company that makes a killing (both literally and figuratively) from war. Of course, we know that Bush has no conflict of interest with respect to the Carlyle Group.. because he told us so himself. ~eye roll~

[kduncan]: Opps.. and don't forget the 911 hearings, that little part about prior knowledge. You know, the part where the warnings of an impending attack on the US were ignored.

[kduncan]: And "no child left behind". That's the program that takes vital funding from the very schools that needs it most --the ones with under-performing students -- and gives more money to the schools that need it least, ie: the schools whose students are already excelling.

[kduncan]: After 911 federal funding to local law enforcement organisations --you know, the first responders in emergencies (even terrorist attacks) -- has been cut by the Bush administration. However, to balance that out, the Department of Homeland Security gets to hold its meetings in Hawaii.. not exactly what one would refer to as one of the more centrally located states.

[kduncan]: Bush's social security program is another one of those things that's good for the wealthy, educated person, but bad for middle and lower income/less well educated person. Those who already have 401 k's and financial advisors will benefit; those who don't, well.. Bush just doesn't like to talk about "those people", much less think about them.

[Crow T. Robot]: I'm curious...how many Bush supporters have tried to destroy this wiki?

[Roc]: As one new to this forum, and this system, as well. I would like to know what all has been done by this group, pro-actively. From what I have read, the only thing managed was point out Bush's flaws. But, what action should be taken?

[kduncan]: As an internet group, and a small one at that, there's not much to be done except to keep pointing out the faults of the Bush admiistration. On a local level though, there's a great deal one can do. The most important thing a US citizen can do is to support and work for local politicians who are opposed to policies set forth by the Bush administration. Join a local party (not Republican) and work to get your politicians elected. Then you can begin to have a positive influence government on a local level.. and move up from there.

[Lord Kügenheim]: We only ever had one, and that won't happen again because everything is passworded now. We haven't done anything really [Roc], This place is still very just based here.

[Rondel]: I disagree, [Lord Kügenheim]; this forum has done two major things that I can think of. One is educational; an informed citizen, and more importantly an informed voter, is more likely to create positive change. The second is to push for people (those who can) to vote. This forum was very strong in pushing that message right before the last US election. Since most eligible US voters don't actually vote, that's an important step toward creating change. Of the two, though, I consider the educational aspect to be the more important. One doesn't have to be a US citizen to make change if one has information and the desire and willingness to make the effort to educate others.

[Lord Kügenheim]: I suppose you do have a point [Rondel], although i did mean protestwise. But we have uncovered many things you wouldnt have noticed just by watching the media. I dont know about all you, but i sure hate bush more now than when i made this page.

[Rondel]: I have been involved with this forum for quite a while (had I joined when I began participating, I'd be member 13), and I'd say that we *haven't* just discussed Bush's faults -- we've also discussed the viable political alternatives, such as the Green party's *actual* platform (as opposed to the caricature most people have encountered from the mass media and those in power). Knowing your alternatives is as important as knowing what's wrong with the present course of action, and there has been real, researched information on that subject (as well as world and political history, also necessary in creating an informed citizen) posted here on a fairly regular basis. That's worth recognizing.

[Lord Kügenheim]: I agree, we have made acheivements in this Wiki, but thats hardly going to swing an election is it?

[Rondel]: No, but it's still not the same as "We haven't done anything really", when asked "what all has been done by this group, pro-actively", by someone who says that "the only thing managed was point out Bush's flaws" and asks "what action should be taken?" Yes, we're only a single small venue, a side-alley in a political backwater... ...but within the capability of this group to do something, something is and has been being done, and I think the folks here deserve to have their efforts toward that end recognized. That's all. :)

[Roc]: Hmm...Though I much more align myself with the Green Party, I did vote for John Kerry. The viable option I see is to attempt to move the Democratic Party back toward the left. Otherwise, the Republican Party shall continue to dominate, based on the plurality voting system we have.----[Rondel], I would like to point out that the voter statistics do show that more than half of eligible voters do vote. However, the average is only 52% for the presidential election.

[Goldice]: i really dont understand politics

[sind]: you guys are way to techniqual and serious in a political sense...more then ill ever be..or am.. quite honestly i dont care...i just dont like bush or any other president..or 'trying to be president' at all! bleh. hey did you know that the las vegas government basically...owns a whore house. haha! funny stuff.

[Roc]: It's a federal system; in Nevada, prostitution is legal. It's the way it goes. Certain states have slightly different consitutions and laws.

[Crow T. Robot]: I don't think there's a whole lot we can do, just discuss why we don't like the president.

[Roc]: How about grassroots organizing in the communities? We could set the agenda here, and then pass it on...

[Rondel]: I do agree with you about the importance of dragging the Democratic party back away from its attempt to become a mirror image of the Republican party, [Roc]. But at the same time, I think it would be a bad idea for the many people I've known who take your position ("Green inclinations, but I vote Democrat because I think it's the only viable option") to let go of those ideals in the name of supposed practicality; here in Australia (my new home), the Green party has become the key swing party in a coalition government, while in Germany, the Greens are actually the party in charge. If the Green-inclined folks in the US were willing to follow the plan so thoughtfully spelled out by <MORE>